Transcript
004: Zina Bencheikh of Intrepid Travel

Theresa Christine: Welcome to The Wild and Curious Podcast, a show that's part travel 

Suzanne Schmedding: Part feminism 

TC: And completely inspired by extraordinary women worldwide. I'm Theresa Christine, 

SS: And I'm Suzanne Schmedding.

TC: One of the things that I've been thinking a lot about lately in our new decade 2020 

SS: Right 

TC: Is the 19th amendment. It seems like something that happened so so long ago, 

SS: Right. 

TC: But it was really only 100 years ago that women were like, 'Cool, we can finally vote,' and not even all women! You know, as I've gotten older, I feel like I have gained so much love and respect for these women who, I don't even know, or like, not related to, just like, these women who are fighting for the rights that I have today.

SS: Yeah, it's incredible, you know, because it's not, it wasn't just an action that they took for them. It was, it was something yes, for them but also like, it's something that has a crazy long lasting legacy that should have been given a right to in the very beginning, and just wasn't, and they fought for that, which is incredibly cool.

TC: Yeah, good. Suffragists are cool.

SS: They are SO cool.

TC:I just I find something really wonderful about that for the women like, not just fighting the good fight, but like women on the front lines, like the ones who are really making the change. And that is one of those women that we get to chat with today. 

SS: Oh my god, I know. I'm so excited. 

TC: Keep it cool, keep it cool, Suzanne. We're chatting today with Zina Bencheikh, who is the Regional General Manager for Intrepid Tourism for Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. 

SS: And she has been lobbying since 2017 to help get more licenses and more opportunities for women in Morocco to be part of this very lucrative job market of being an adventure tour guide

Zina Bencheikh: Yeah, well, in 2017, we've been given a goal by the company, by Intrepid, to double the number of female guides we have across the globe. And while this, you know, seemed like an easy task for some countries, like, you know, Europeans, Russians, in Iceland they had actually more female guides than the males. For me, in Morocco, it was a pretty tough challenge, because we have no female guides at all, you know, in the crew of I think, at that time was around 50 guys or two leaders, all of them were male, so, so we had to go to Davos, I could have found one, and, you know, tick, but I thought that wouldn't be enough. So I think, you know, what happened really is that I realized that, that if I wanted to find female to, you know, a woman to do a tour leading job in Morocco, where there was a bigger cultural barrier, clearly and not just in Morocco, in least need to know female not a woman will not seem like we will not look it wouldn't see that this job was was a suitable one for women. There was also another barrier, which was more around regulations and around how this job was regulated in Morocco specifically. So this is where I decided to come the Ministry of Tourism and start my turn of lobbying work around you know, getting them to understand that there was a big business opportunity that it was a really good thing to do, that it was a great job for women and that we're really here to help to get things job changes and and you know, after a few years, the managed to get the, you know, the technical change in Morocco and in the first ever national test was organized in 2018 by the history of tourism that loads the 1000 people to become tour leaders and guides. And this is how we really good opportunity to to get a woman working with us in the company as tour leaders basically,

TC: Being a tour guide is kind of like, that's a really good job in Morocco, isn't it?

ZB: Yeah, it is actually. So in Morocco, and in a few countries of the Middle East, it's actually really well paid, it's often paid more than the minimum salary in Morocco. Specifically, it's five to six times the minimum salary. So it's pretty empowering. And there was a lot of, you know, elements around, you know, with the commission's and teachings and it's a it's a job that's, that is paid well, and this is why we do it, you know, why wouldn't we want to do it and in addition to the fact to be a job that is paid well, it's also what we call like a starting point job in our industry. So there are a lot of people around us, in our business and in the industry in general that started as tour leaders or tour guides. So some general managers, some operations managers and so on, so I wouldn't you know, woman wants to work, you know, to do this job while it could open up so, so many opportunities for them. 

SS: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's, that's kind of crazy for me to think about that. When you started, there were no female guides whatsoever. And you lobbied to change that. And I guess it kind of makes me wonder, you know, you've explained that there were some cultural barriers, and you know, a lot of prejudices. What was the general way of life for women in Morocco? I mean, what is the general way of life for women in Morocco?

ZB: Very mixed, you know, it's very mixed. It depends if we're in the cities, or if we're in the rural area. And so if we look at, in general, there are 25% of women that work in the workforce, and that includes unpaid job that includes undeclared jobs. So it's already a pretty low, you know, stats for the country. But then if you look at rural area of the country, almost half of the country is made of rural area now, we have 70 to 80% of illiteracy rates around woman. So it's even worse, not even talking about working but talking about, you know, being able to read and write. So it's a it's a pretty tough country to be a woman, I want to say, and there are lots of things that should improve in my opinion. And I love the fact, and I love the fact that we can think that toursim can make change in this way, because we are a touristic country and we are growing very, very nicely. In fact, we've been hosting 12 million tours last year and a lot of them from the United States. So it's actually it's actually good to use that, in a way, that industry to create a change, a better change for women, I think.

TC: When you started lobbying in 2017, and were working towards making these changes, what, I mean, were people really excited and feeling ready? Was the general population thinking, 'no, we do not want women tour leaders'? What, what were people doing as a reaction? 

ZB: Well, I think it's changed with time. At the very beginning, I have a lot of reactions from people in our industry, in our business, that were challenging this whole idea, you know, why do we want female guides? Why do we want to go the number why I mean, there are some guides who even told me to my face That's, you know, while we're trying to get the job out of them, you know, and replace them with women, and still very recently, I am still hearing that, even sometimes sarcastic or just to, to, to, you know, to have fun. But you know, with time we kind of show them how much this initiative has brought good publicity, an advertisement to ask, to ask, you know, what is next and that we've been growing fast. We've been very successful as a business. And I want to think that it's thanks to that. And so we have now a lot of engaged leaders and engaged suppliers and people in our office that you know, are with us now trying to even get more female guides and supporting them on the ground and in the office because they see that it's actually beneficial. So it's above the cultural barrier. It's, it makes business sense. I would say, so people are changing, thanks to that. So at least you know, something, but the cultural barrier was was strong is strong in Morocco. But I want to say not as strong as maybe India or in some countries in the Middle East. It's just about you know, I think it was just about showing that this job can be done by a woman and can be perfected fine. I mean, it doesn't mean anything wrong about a woman and a woman can be very professional and do the job very well, because we train them and we support them exactly the same as we do for men, and it's a passion, so why not? You know, and so we see a change definitely see a change.

TC: So, that's one of the things that I've noticed about Intrepid Travel is they have a, like a women's only tour, like entire range to many destinations. And one of them is Morocco. So obviously, you want to have a woman guide for a tour like that. 

ZB: Yeah. 

TC: And what what kind of growth have you seen in that particular range in Morocco and, and also what kind of things make those tours unique that people can't do on a co Ed trip?

ZB: Yeah. So I guess when we came up with the idea to create these tours, where we have low expectations, and especially not that it will be as successful as it was, we've grown the range from three destinations, I think to around 12 or 13, which just launched a new one was born in Pakistan, actually, I think last week. 

TC: Yeah. Yeah, that's so exciting! I have!

ZB: Yeah, I want to do this one, always. I started with Morocco, Jordan, Iran and then expanded to Turkey, Kenya, India, Nepal and now we've got Pakistan and probably others that I forgot. But it's been growing 160% in one year time, which is pretty big. It's become,I mean, we call it the more popular product idea in the history of Intrepid and Intrepid has been there for 30 years. So it's pretty, pretty cool. I think what why this product range works, it's, it's because it was pretty innovative in a way and and we didn't create this course just to give opportunity to women to you know, you know, enjoy a holiday with women and that's it, you know, it was just not to go on the idea. We really wanted to create products that were empowering from both sides on the, you know, on the trip itself, the way we designed them, as you mentioned, we have female, they are guided by female guides, and in some places it was up in Morocco, it would be a female mountain guide, the first and only female mountain guide packet that's on 2017 was leading this tour. And that means if we want to make this sustainable, we need more of them. And so that's actually helped us with the lobbying process in a way when I was talking about business, make a business case out of that, that, you know, we've got some pretty unique experiences that the group of mixed men and women wouldn't be able to do, because of the way this countries, the conservativism in these countries, in Morocco, for example, wouldn't be able to the woman who houses us in tours wouldn't be able to house us if it were mixed. So we can create some unique connections between a woman you know, the woman has the woman foreigners, because we created this framework and like around these two, so, experiences that you will have here in Morocco will be you know, making traditional breads, learning how to cook the traditional couscous, they will be able to trek, so it's actually a pretty physical challenge that you will do but you will do it among a group of women, they will not be in your judgment from you know, maybe more powerful men around if you are slow, if you don't reach, you know the objective so it will be much more confident kind of environment. And obviously, you know, sharing the stories of all the women that we meet in the in the tour that you know, can be a woman mulechair, I don't know if you know this word French word, there is no equivalent in English, but it means the it's a person who in the track, you know how to carry all the porter and all the equipment like a porter that's using a mule. So we call this a mulechair. Okay, and so this job has never been done by a woman defined because of this tool. We created the first woman who chose the country. So that woman instead of doing you know, work at home and taking care of her husband and children is now having a job and now is making money off of it, and she's really really happy about that, so yeah yeah typically the kind of things that you know, I this was creating opportunities and also you know these unique experiences and this is why I think it's been so successful

TC: Yeah and I love the environment and being in a group with other women there it really just changes the interactions when it is just women. It seems silly on surface level, but there is some kind of like deep almost telepathic thing

ZB: Yeah, it creates different moods, and you know, that's most of our customers when we ask them what the truth, the truth, they will say no, they're married or have partners but they just want to be alone so we can do something different all day. You know, it's, it's very interesting the kind of woman we're attracting on these tours, and honestly, I think it's empowering for both sides. You know, really both sides and for the for the house to see woman coming from, you know, foreign countries who are lawyers, who are like doctors, when you know, independent and often extremely empowering just to see them and to get to spend time with them. And I think this is a pretty big achievement in a way.

TC: For sure. And I mean, talking about empowering, just, just what you have done. And I think the education aspect of things is, is so important, because when you give people that access to education, and then that leads to further equal opportunities, like these great paying jobs and these things that they wouldn't normally get to be able to do.

ZB: Well, I feel I have a responsibility to bring back to my community so I'm, I'm thankful to work for a company that gives me this opportunity. And the reality is that I haven't been in Morocco all my life. I was born here, but I'm, you know, I'm from parents who are both academics and you know, PhDs that are highly educated and traveled the world before deciding to coming back and for me, the fact that I could this chance to get access to the best level of education and to travel the world, and this is something that I know is pretty unique as a Moroccan and I have this ability to bring this back to, to the women who didn't have that opportunity. And obviously, there are a lot of them so it's good that I'm able to do it with my job. So you know, acting as a role model is a big you know, big because, you know, when woman now officers see someone like me, the position I am, it's obviously very empowering and giving them some kind of, you know, goals and that they feel they can achieve now that in the same time, to be more and as you said, you know, working with the, you know, with the association and product and with the oldest initiative to support women of my country, I feel as if it's a possibility to now, so I'm not gonna stop.

SS: Absolutely. And I mean, just, just with that, I think you had mentioned before that you were working with Education for All and you know, just really helping to set up these, these new tests for guides and I think it's such an exciting endeavor. And I guess I'm wondering, you know, with, with all these new measures and schools and actions kind of taking place, where do you see the industry going from here for women?

ZB: Oh, well, I think the industry is doing better than other industries. And especially since I'm involved in this woman empowerment talks, I attend a lot of conferences that from and I learned so much over the years, I can see you know, from the past and from what I see is that we are in an industry, travel industry that is actually a bit more advanced than other industry in terms of in a woman empowerment in the past woman, ministers woman in the leadership positions and all this, but we're still, you know, we're still not there. I mean, the quality's not there, and mostly in countries that are, you know, like, like my country or countries of Africa or whatever we call them. So, so there's still a lot to do. What I found amazing is that the tourism industry has a big potential to create change. I've seen it myself. This is what we've been talking about are examples of that. It's an industry that's easy to reach. It's an industry that doesn't, we talk about education doesn't require a very high level of education, you know, that a lot of woman who can make the, you know, their money out of cooking, the money out of, you know, service jobs that don't really require very high level of education and university degrees and stuff like that. So this is against something I've learned, and I've seen happen so and also, you know, touristic countries, you know, at least in Africa, in developing worlds in general, rely on tourism dollars. So, you know, the industry, the tourism industry act the right way can really create a trust in these countries because these countries rely on the tourism dollar. So, you know, having a big company is trying and like Intrepid travel that creates those tours, and it's kind of make a business case out of them. You know, with goals liked doubling female guides and stuff like that is definitely creating an impact in the community. So in a way, we are in a good industry to create a change I think for for women and for women empowerment.

TC: Alright, so how much do you love Zina?

SS: Oh my God. It was very hard to remain cool, but I think I did an excellent job because all I wanted to say was 'Can I BE you?', but also I just I really wanted to get to know her and be her friend and you know, just do part of the work. She's so inspiring and cool.

TC: Great. I really like too, how she recognizes the privilege that she's had in her life and you know, like I could, she wasn't here in the room with us, but like you could hear her smiling when she's like, I'm a really lucky Moroccan woman and just the fact that she is there in Morocco. And you know, she's helping women get these rights.

SS: Yeah, she's going back to her roots like she you know, she's spent her life traveling and abroad with these very educated parents. She could have easily stayed in, in a country that, you know, maybe had a little bit more equality but she, she went back to her home country and is fighting the good fight. 

TC: It's also something to point out about the education aspect where that, that really makes all the difference. And when women are not given access to the same education, then it just changes the trajectory of their lives.

SS: It absolutely does and when they were talking about the group that they work with Education for All and how they go into rural communities, and they provide these resources and, and what a difference it makes in their lives. Like, I I think the work they're doing is so incredible. I think I'm just gonna go sign up to work with them. 

TC: Do it. 

SS: Okay. Yeah. All right. 

TC: I support you.

SS: Thanks! And if you like me are super excited to hear more about what Zina is doing or what Education for All is doing. You can check out intrepidtravel.com to learn more about their tours in Morocco and how they partner with Education for All, we will put those in The show notes

TC: You've been listening to The Wild and Curious Podcast hosted by me, Theresa Christine 

SS: And me, Suzanne Schmedding. If you've enjoyed this episode, there's more where this came from. Subscribe to The Wild and Curious Podcast wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. You can also follow along with our adventures on Instagram. Our handle is @_thewildandcurious_ and we will also put that in the show notes for you.

TC: We are always looking for extraordinary women to talk to you on our show. If you have someone in mind or you are that someone, go to thewildandcurious.com to let us know