Transcript
012: Rebecca Chiao of HarassMap

Theresa Christine: Heads up that the entirety of this episode is dedicated to talking about street and sexual harassment and rape, and may be triggering to some listeners. But we feel this is an important issue to discuss. We want you to feel safe and comfortable. And we have lots of other episodes you can listen to which highlight non-triggering feminist issues. Welcome to The Wild and Curious Podcast, a show that's part travel 

Suzanne Schmedding: Part feminism 

TC: And completely inspired by extraordinary women worldwide. I'm Theresa Christine, 

SS: And I'm Suzanne Schmedding. 

TC: Yeah, you are at least in a car 

SS: I'm at least in a car, 

TC: Doesn't that like, that, just those situations make me so angry. I always get so angry after being street harassed or dealing with some kind of like, yucky person. 

SS: Oh, yeah!

TC: Because I'm just, I just want to like, punch somebody and that's not the reasonable response. But, 

SS: I think it is reasonable, but, 

TC: True, true. 

SS: But no, it's, it's that feeling of just like, things shouldn't be this way. And, and there's that sense of powerlessness because even if you are in your car, and you have the ability to go, it still happened and you're still subject to it. Like, you're just this dumping ground for whatever else some person wants to put on you about their sexual needs. And it's just like, that's not fair.

TC: Yeah, 

SS: I don't like that. 

TC: I'm an actual human being.

SS: You are. 

TC: And you know, I think yes, it's something that happens more to women than to men, but we, we have to mention like, harassment, sexual harassment happens to any gender. But, what is so cool about who we're talking to today is that, you know, she had one of these experiences of terrible like, she had a sexual assault experience on the streets of Egypt, where a man exposed himself to her and no one around her was helping her. And, I mean, any, any response to these situations I think is valid, any emotions that you might have. But what is so cool about the woman we're talking to today is she's created an online tool that helps people. Rebecca Chiao is the founder of HarassMap. It is a tool that pinpoints incidents of sexual violence throughout Egypt, and helps communities make the streets safer for women and men alike. 

SS: Their mission is to engage all of Egyptian society to create an environment that does not tolerate sexual harassment.

Rebecca Chiao: Well, I lived there, I moved there in 2004, and I left in 2015. So during that period of time, it was definitely something that happened to me every day, and most people I know, as well. What I've heard from people, maybe our parents age or our grandparents age, is that it used to be something that was very rare. It used to be very socially taboo to sexually harass someone in the street, and if it happened, bystanders would kind of call out the person who was harassing and bring it up and say 'That's not okay' and even chase them. There's, there's a lot of stories that we heard about people chasing the the harassers and shaving their heads. And in this way, it was kind of known to everyone around that they had been caught harassing, and it was shameful. Even now, some of my friends had shaved heads, you know, just not related to that.

TC: Oh, no. And then people are like, 'What did you do?'

RC: Yeah, we joke around because it's not something people do anymore. But everyone kind of remembers this image. It's something that we, we think has changed gradually over, over a couple of decades, and gotten to the point where harassment isn't just a, you know, happening all the time, but it's acceptable that it's happening all the time. And hopefully in the last few years, since HarassMap and other organizations have been working, this has hopefully changed a little bit for the better. It's really hard to tell these things, because throughout most of the history, there's no data. There's a couple studies, and most of them were only done around the years of 2008 to 2014. So we have a snapshot in terms of data, but for change over the long term, there's really nothing to, to pin down what's happening at any given point in time in order to compare it. 

TC: And so much, you know, when it comes to street harassment or sexual harassment, so much of it just doesn't get reported in the first place when you have that society that kind of blames the victim.

RC: Yes, exactly. It's a huge problem. It's, it's a problem on a number of levels. On, on one, there's kind of a legal framework, and Egypt actually, is alright with this. I mean, there could be there could be improvements everywhere, 

SS: Sure 

RC: But for a long time, they've had laws against the behaviors that constitute sexual harassment and assault. And recently, they passed a law that actually uses the word sexual harassment and assault, but the real problem is exactly as you were saying in reporting. So, sometimes someone who has been harassed, will actually go and try and make a police report. But, because society as a whole doesn't take the issue very seriously, the police also don't take the issue very seriously. And sometimes they encounter a lot of resistance at the police station. But mostly what happens is that the the people who are harassed just don't feel like anything is gonna happen from reporting it. It's a big hassle. I've never reported harassment. 

TC: Yeah. 

RC: Yeah, like, it's, I never want to take the time to do it. I just want to get on with my life. 

TC: Yeah, it's, it's like, embarrassing and achy. And like, technically, yes, it's the right thing to do because you were violated, but it's also just, I don't know, you're kind of like you just want to move past it. So how, how does like, if someone were to go on today and use HarassMap, how does that work? 

RC: Oh, okay. Um, so uh, there's a couple different angles or approaches that we try to put together so that they support each other. We have the reporting and mapping system, where victims or witnesses can send a report about what happened and where. This, at the beginning was mainly to break the silence. And then later on, we realized that this information really helps us in planning our programs and in making public campaigns and social media campaigns about the issue. We have more on-the-ground work. We, when we first started, we started in neighborhoods. And then, as things developed, and as things change, we started focusing more on institutions. So at the beginning, it was called Community Mobilization. And now it's called Safe Areas. And we have safe schools and universities, and we have safe corporates, and we have like the community level safe areas. And in this approach, we talked to the leadership of institutions. So, whether it's a company or a university, we go to kind of decision makers and discuss with them the advantages of having a safe area with zero tolerance for sexual assault and sexual violence. And we work with them to put in place a policy that's very detailed about how to report, what are the definitions of sexual harassment and assault, and what are the steps for escalation, so, or dealing with the, the harasser or the accusation. And then we work with them to, on trainings to train all of their employees and doing awareness marketing in their, in their institution, and do a monitoring of their implementation.

TC: It sounds great too, because you're giving communities these like, set things of, 'This is what harassment looks like, these are the different ways that it can appear to a bystander." Like, that's really powerful to have that knowledge.

SS: Oh, absolutely. And I was I was actually reading through your website too, and like, seeing the different ways that you can intervene and help like, they're they're such wonderful resources. 

TC: So valuable. 

SS: And I guess also, what I'm curious about is how, how do you think that having these incidents on actual maps where people can see them, how do you feel like this is helpful?

RC: This was really helpful at the beginning, especially when we were still in the process of uncovering this issue in public. It was an issue that was not talked about in public. Kind of everyone knew that it happened, because it was happening 

SS: Because it was HAPPENING.

TC: To literally everyone who's a woman

RC: And a lot of men and boys as well, and so, everyone knew it, but people didn't talk about it. And so when we talk about having a project against this or having an activity dealing with it, people's first response was, 'This doesn't really happen.' And then showing them the reports, and the map, was a really good way to really demonstrate that it does happen. And even though our data collection was not representative of the population, and it wasn't able to be used for statistics about, you know, this percentage of the population has been harassed or this is where harassment happens more often, or, you know, we can't make representations like that. But, it, the anecdotal part of it was really rich, and it was written in people's own voices. So we weren't just saying, 'This happens, and this happens, and this happens.' It was a first person narrative of 'This happened to me. I was dressed like this. I was doing this, I felt like this. No one helped. What is going on?' It was really shocking for people at the beginning to hear, to hear the language that people used. And people would, you could see the change in their face when you were talking to them. The first they were like, 'Oh, this isn't really a serious problem.' And then they would read some of these reports, and they would start being shocked and they would start taking it seriously. And from there, that's when the, the activism would start.

TC: Yeah, it's really powerful to make it less about a statistic. I mean, that is really important to have, if you can, but to have it be an actual person's story. That's incredibly powerful. That's way more than a number.

RC: Yeah, it was, uh, it really changed people.

SS: So when you say it changed people, what, what do you feel like has been the reaction in general both of volunteers as well as the people on the street who you've introduced HarassMap to?

RC: Um, our volunteers have been the most amazing part of working. So, so like I said, you know, we didn't consider ourselves experts or that we know all the answers. Actually, that one thing that we did feel like we knew, was the only way that change is going to happen was for everyone to be engaged. For a lot of them, it was the first time they had the chance to do something, to, to hands on, like, have ideas about a problem that they were frustrated about, or upset about, and to channel that frustration into doing something positive, and doing it with other people in a hopeful way, you know. So there were people who had some really traumatic experiences, and at the very, at the very least, after becoming volunteers for us or becoming part of our team, I think they found a lot of companionship and a little bit of comfort, at least they didn't feel as alone. One of our, one of our volunteers lost his sister. She was raped and couldn't tell anyone about it. It was his twin sister, and obviously is inexplicably traumatic, that I can't even imagine. And he started out as a volunteer, and then he joined our team, and, and he was an important part of our team. And I feel like it was almost a little family. It was really close. And yeah, it was. I mean, it's hard to, it's hard to describe like all the different ways an, an experience like this is, is beneficial for us, for him, for society for, for the work in general, but I really appreciated it and I appreciated his contribution a lot.

TC: That's so great. But, you know, I mean, it's, it's terrible what happened to his sister, and I'm sure you know, it deeply affects him every day. But the fact that he was able to get involved with HarassMap and help out in a positive way, I think is really great. And yeah, I mean, just sexual harassment, it is the kind of thing where afterwards, you are left having so many different feelings and anger is one of them and you kind of are like, 'What, what can I do? Like, what should I have done differently?' And, unfortunately, you can't change those past situations, but to be able to like, make your country better is so cool.

SS: Yeah. It's really the best you can ask for.

TC: Yeah, absolutely. I think we should have something like that in all the United States. How have you seen HarassMap helping people like, is there sort of a change in the way that people feel when they go out on the streets now?

RC: Harassment is definitely for the past years, something that has a name, where before it didn't. It was, it was a controversial name. When, for many years when we first started, people disagreed with the name in Arabic. The name of Arabic is [unable to translate] and people's, people's definition of this was often different than the definition that we wanted to use. A lot of people felt that it only applied to rape, or rape of children, or, you know, certain very extreme, on the extreme ends, but that groping and verbal harassment, even though that can be very extreme as well, and also extremely scary, they felt that this didn't fall under that category, that this was in a different category called moaxa. Like, which is more often interpreted as flirting. But at least now there's a name for it. And it's, it's less considered the faults of the victim. And it's much more easily talked about in public. So, when someone got harassed in 2010, a lot of times they would be afraid to tell people. And now, it's gotten to the point where people post about it very freely on social media, on their profile with with their name attached to it, it doesn't have to be anonymous anymore. That's actually one of the good trends we've seen. People use our reporting system less because they're posting on Facebook more. Yeah, so our reporting system is anonymous. And at the beginning, that was important. But, it's not really important anymore because the issue has, has moved to a space where it's, it's not really as much the victims fault anymore,

SS: Right. 

TC: Yeah, it's like, 'Let's talk about this problem.'

RC: Yeah. And, 'This is what happened to me. I'm angry.' And not, 'I'm not gonna say what happened to me because everyone's gonna blame me.'

TC: Yeah, 

SS: And these are such huge steps to take, you know, like, even the move from, from being able to say that 'I'm angry about this.' That's, that's an enormous step. What, what do you feel like you would hope the ultimate change would be with HarassMap?

RC: Well, our goal is to end sexual harassment and sexual assault. This is, of course, something that has never been achieved in anywhere. So, what is often discussed now, when a, when a big sexual harassment scandal happens in the public eye in Egypt, is consent. Consent is, is kind of where everything coalesces with a discussion. There, there are people who disagree about who's at fault. And, and whether it was harassment or flirting. And what does harassment mean? And what's the difference between, you know, talking to someone in a threatening way and talking to someone in a, in a complimentary way, or flirting way, and who gets to decide? So, if the, you know, typically it's, it's a woman being harassed, and typically it's a man harassing, even though that's not

TC: It's not always the case, but often.

RC: But if we're generalizing, a lot of people, you know, are asking like, 'Well, if he didn't mean it as harassment, if he meant to be giving a compliment, then who is she to say that this is harassment?' And I think this is very similar to some of the things I was hearing around, especially when, when the Aziz Ansari incident happened around the #metoo time, that was something that, that I kept hearing in this country and in the U.S discussed, like, Where is that line?

TC: Yeah, that must have been so weird to be like, 'I have had this conversation,’

SS: Right. 

TC: ‘In Egypt.’

RC: So, um, you know, for those of us who work directly on the issue, sometimes it's easy for us to think like, 'Oh, the answer is obvious,' but it's actually not. And when we start talking about it, it gets really deep and complicated. So this is something that they're really focusing on now as well.

SS: When she said that It seems like the answer should be obvious for what their ultimate goal should be, but it's more complicated than that. Because it's about, you know, it's not just about a change in behavior. It's about safe spaces. It's a change in education. It's a change in laws and like the people who are on the, like, it's just, it's just much more complicated. But I think that also means that there's more opportunities for, for anyone to contribute to making, making the, the culture of being in the world more palatable, more friendly.

TC: I found it really fascinating that street harassment and sexual harassment in Egypt used to be something that people would be like, 'You're terrible. We're gonna shave your head.'

SS: I know! I love that! Oh my gosh, I want to do that! 

TC: Do you want to be one of those people running down the street with a razor?

SS: Yes!

TC: It's, it's just so crazy that the, the attitude has changed and that Egypt, you know, luckily things are getting better right now, thanks to things like HarassMap, but you know, even I have heard from so many people that street harassment and sexual harassment in Egypt is really terrible. So for them to go from like punishing the harassers to, you know, having it be this terrible place is just a wild flip,

SS: And reversing that flip back again to where Egypt will become again a safe place to walk around to experience for locals and travelers alike, it's definitely a hard road to hoe, but it's, it's very cool that HarassMap is starting to make some headway.

TC: Also, one of the reasons why I think something like Harassmap works is that you are getting the bystanders involved. And that's really the big thing is, for people who see it happening, for them to be like, 'This is not okay and I can do something about it.'

SS: Yeah, it's that, it's that accountability and also community care. Like, you're, you're fellow human beings.

TC: Yeah. And so you want to step up and you want to do something about it. And that is so often, you know, when you see bad things happening on the street, you're kind of like, I just don't want to be involved if I can help it. But you could be the person who really makes a change and prevents assaults and prevents violence from happening against people. Do you feel like something like Harassmap could work in the United States?

SS: You know, I, I honestly don't know. I feel like there are so many...we're so divided, you know, especially right now ideologically and, and I feel like the people who would be really into doing an app like that, or doing a map like that would probably be living in an area where there wouldn't necessarily be the worst sexual harassment.

TC: I don't know if I agree with that. There's sexual harassment everywhere. And just like it doesn't have to be like, sure, ideally, it's everybody in the community who is on board. But even if it's just one person who's using it at first, 

SS: Yeah. 

TC: And then to get more and more people,

SS: Well, you know what, I, I take it back, like,

TC: Ha, 'I rescind my comment'

SS: I rescind my comment, because, you know, honestly, like, I think, like, yeah, I can be cynical and nah nah nah, but if HarassMap was started in a place that, you know, was as, is, as volatile as the streets of Egypt can be by someone who, in her own words, she said that they're just regular people who want to help, you know, maybe maybe, it can work here. 

TC: Yeah.

SS: Let's, let's choose hope. If you'd like to connect with Harassmap, you can head to their website at www.harassmap.org.

TC: Or you can find them on Facebook. Their URL there is facebook.com/harassmapEgypt. If you enjoy listening to the wild and curious podcast and would like to contribute to helping us make this thing run, you can, you can Venmo us at The Wild and Curious or via PayPal at paypal.me/thewildandcurious. Anything you send ,big or small, will go towards the cost of running a podcast that's dismantling the patriarchy.

SS: You can also follow along with our adventures on Instagram. Our handle is @_thewildandcurious_ and we will also put that in the show notes for you. 

TC: We are always looking for extraordinary women to talk to you on our show. If you have someone in mind or you are that someone go to thewildandcurious.com to let us know.

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