Transcript
011: Dr. Nissa Mututanont

Theresa Christine: Welcome to The Wild and Curious Podcast.  A show that's part travel 

Suzanne Schmedding: Part feminism

TC: And completely inspired by extraordinary women worldwide. I'm Theresa Christine, 

SS: And I'm Suzanne Schmedding.

TC: You actually had the, like, legit elephant-in-Thailand experience. 

SS: Yeah. 

TC: Tell me about your elephant experience. 

SS: Oh my goodness. That's gonna take up the whole podcast, you are welcome.

TC: Shorten it to....not the whole podcast. 

SS: Um, no. Okay, so..

TC: What did you really take away from it?

SS: I love elephants. And okay, sorry.

TC: Elephant for me!

SS: Elephants for me! I did! Oh, I loved them so much. Like, it was, it was an amazing experience. And you know, I was there with a friend of mine who is, you know, she works with a lot of animal rescue and, and so she had done all the research. And when we got there, you, you work like you're part of the staff. Like, you have your cabin that you go to, and you eat with everyone, but essentially, you're, you're helping to prepare the food, and you're helping to give them baths, and you have to cut down sugarcane with a machete to feed to them. The other thing too, is that before you're allowed to interact with the elephants at all, you have to go and take this, this mini class, like an educational sort of hour long seminar about the history of elephants of Thailand, you know, the way that they were treated, you know, rules to abide by so, you have this kind of very, very basic general knowledge. But, you know, on the whole it was, it was magical. 

TC: Yeah, it's not just like you going in and like, let's get some Instagram photos. It was actually like, you're gonna work, you're gonna pay us, you're going to learn the history. 

SS: Right. And it was like all of the money that you know, like, they have this waiver, that you signe that says 'all of the money that you give to us, that you're paying for room and board, all of this goes to the care of the elephants because they eat so much and it takes so much to look after them.' 

TC: You know, ethical tourism is, as you know, as we're going to discuss in this episode is a really complicated thing. It's not just black and white. And so we're really excited for the guest that we have on the show today. 

SS: Yes. 

TC: Dr. Nissa Mututanonot is the head elephant veterinarian at the Golden Triangle Asian Elephant Foundation and the Anantara Golden Triangle Elephant Camp and Resort. She works with mahouts, or elephant owners, to keep their animals healthy.

Nissa Mututanont: I didn't see myself as a elephant veterinarian until I really applied for the job. So, funny story about it is, I actually found a job on Facebook. And it was an urgent message, it was come up, keep popping up on my feed that said like, 'Oh urgent Elephant vet needed. No training necessary, as we will train you on the site or we will send you off somewhere to be trained.' And at the time, I was actually looking at, for jobs that is actually going to be more Zoo setting, basically working with multiple species because that's where I started to feel like this is where I can actually contribute it to the, to the animal's worlds out there. And I just decided that, well, since there's no Zoo opening, I would just try out the job as an elephant vet, why not? I will just focus on one species and then probably as the time comes on, we will move on to other, other things that we have opportunity that comes up. And I came in and I didn't really realize that I would stay this long with the elephants already, and it's been quite an experience with them actually. So it was really interesting. A lot of people in my class, were really shocked to see that, oh, she's an elephant vet, what the heck, what happened? Because I didn't show my, I guess, interest in elephant until I really come in and start working with them. 

TC: So did you do like, on the job training, in addition to what you already had done in veterinary school?

NM: Yeah. And you know what strange thing is, and I think this is going to be true to any of the veterinary schools out there, is that there is more animals species than there is, you know, places that you can actually practice on or you can't really get a full entire scope of the whole entire animal kingdoms because there's just so many of them, you basically need to expand if you want to do something that is very, very specific. You basically need to use I guess, your summer break or winter break, to basically look for extracurricular, volunteer opportunity to basically expand on what you want to become later when you graduated.

TC: So you're in Thailand, and I'm just so curious like, what is your day to day work like? Like, what is the typical day like? Because, you, most people go into an office and you know, they say 'Hey' to their co-workers and like, you walk in and you have a bunch of elephants that you're overseeing. 

NM: So, you come in in the morning, you basically okay, take a look at the elephant that is going to work today. And, you walk over to them you ask the mahout, which is the elephant caretaker, about their night, like, whether has the elephant eaten all the food ration that it has been given? Did the elephant go to sleep? Were you able to see any of the dung or anything that is abnormal? And you basically take all this information and you think, okay, the elephant is fine, then you basically would have to come in and start work a little bit on the data recording basically, which is a big thing for monitoring the health of the elephant. And yeah, that's basically what the day would look like at the beginning. And then I'm also in charge of some of the program at the Anantara Golden Triangle itself, which is basically some of the guests experiences that we offer here at the hotel. So it would be either the 'Walking with Giants' where we, I take the guests out with the elephants, with the mahouts, and we basically follow the elephant along where they want to go. We might get to see elephant bathe, we might get to see elephant, dust themselves in the sand, or we might see elephant just disappear into a tall grass kind of thing. And there's another program that we do, which is the educational program where we talk more in depth about the elephant biology, where they come from, and what gives, what is the definition of an elephant. 

SS: That's incredible. And you do so much with, with the elephants directly and it's very hands on. Since you're doing all that, could you tell us about the relationship between the mahout and the elephant? 

NM: So, the mahouts and the elephant basically is, I guess, the most important people, or most important, two factors that is very, very important for us. So the mahout, which is the human, basically would have to take care of the elephants, and on a daily basis. So they take them out to eat, they take them out to bathe, they take them out to making sure that the elephant is fiscally sound, basically making sure that the elephant is in a good mood, I guess by bringing it a little snack here and there. And the elephant themselves definitely is the star, I would say. So we also want to make sure that the elephants that we have are always going to be in a calm state where they don't really feel threatened or anything like that. And we make sure that we put the elephant together with the mahouts that is able to pair themselves together so that they can work, they can communicate, and we have a good relationship between the two as well.

TC: And I love that, you know, you're talking about how one of the programs at Anantara is this educational program. And also when you do the Walking with Giants, it's just like, 'Where do the elephants want to go?' And I think when people envision going to Thailand, interacting with elephants is really high on the list. 

NM: Yes 

TC: But there are so many, there's so many not ethical places, like, what can people do, so that they can look for something and get this bucket list experience to interact with elephants, but also be giving to a good organization?

NM: There are a lot of organizations out there that would said that they're approved by so-and-so and hence, everybody should come to my camp. And there will be other camps that basically would point fingers at each other and said, like, 'Oh, this is not a good camp,' as well. So it's very, very difficult to find something that is, I guess, ethical, that is actually written down as ethical elephant camp, because I think for everybody, the word ethical means something very, very different. Some people would say that an elephant camp that basically allows you to touch an elephant is unethical. And there, other people would say no. I mean, for myself, I would say like, 'Well, if the elephant doesn't mind us touching them, we give it plenty of warning, we make sure that the elephant is not, you know, the, I guess, the most aggressive of the bunch, then it's okay.' Because, it just, culture-wise is very, very different for everybody.

TC: Yeah. So, Suzanne, you went to an elephant sanctuary in Thailand. I have not been to one. But when Suzanne came back, she was telling me you're not supposed to ride them?

SS: No. Well, the mahouts do...well, the mahouts only, they, they did that on the...you know what? I'm gonna let Dr. Nissa answer that, what do I know?

TC: Our expert veterinarian, Suzanne. Should you like, as a guest, is riding an elephant a no-no?

NM: Well, let's see. So, um, for...

TC: So tricky! This is so much more complicated than I thought!

NM: It is a tricky question, because there are other people, that, there are a lot of people that said like, 'It's bad, it's gonna hurt the elephant back.' While scientifically, there hasn't been a study that is done on the elephant that said, like, 'Well, if you sit on an elephant, it's going to hurt the spine. It's going to make, it's, going to make them have, you know, bad osteoporosis in a later day.' There hasn't been a study done like that. Elephants, you have to understand that they're actually carrying about 3000 tons or roughly about 6000 pounds on those four legs. So, you guys are basically going to be, you know, less than 10% on the back of the elephant's back, and the elephant it depends on how they have been trained or how have they been kept, that which activity is best to do with the elephants. By popularity, it could be, you know, going down in itself because well, people are becoming more aware of the ideas of animal welfare and how we should really act around the elephant itself. But it is also part of the culture, of the Thai cultures, that everybody is, you know, trying to make sure that it could be passed on to the next generation so that we still have this tradition going on or has been, or has a record of that, to say like, 'Oh, once we were, you know, warriors on the elephant back' per se.

TC: Can you tell us a bit more about that history? Because I think that's something that, I honestly don't know anything about that, like the tradition of it. 

SS: Yeah, same

NM: Since the very beginning, I guess, of Thai history itself. elephant is not just used for carrying goods, like a lot of people thought they were, but they were once used as a, basically in warfare. So, our huge, what had happened in the past is that when our king would basically ride on the back of the biggest bull that he has, so that he will fight against another country, or another province for land for resources on another king that is on the elephant back ,and they will basically fight to see who will win over that. So, people that have been able to, basically, captured wild elephants, train them for, to be ready as, I guess, elephant calvary, basically, are the mahouts. And those are the people that basically train the elephants so that they can be, I guess, military, I guess, in a military setting in itself. So, those will basically, the time where the mahouts are really revered as someone that is very close to the royal family. Horses were introduced into Thailand roughly in the 14-1600's. Things start to change for the elephants because elephants need to eat 10% of their body weight every single day. It takes a lot of people to take care of elephants, and they eat a lot of food, so horses were becoming more preferred in warfare. And slowly the elephant had reduced their status into just being one of the, what do you call those? Transportation animal? So, same classes as horses and horses, mules, buffaloes and cattle. Yeah. So sort of like that. And things start to change. People start to like, 'Oh, well, if the elephant can only be this, then we'll do it, train it for something else.' And then they train it for the logging industry, which is, one of the most, I guess, lucrative business in the 1900s. Then, things start to change again in the 19, late 1900's, when Thai government decided that, to, in order to be saved, to preserve the wild forest, and the wild animal species that we have, we have to close down the loggng industry because everything just skyrocketed. So, once that closed down, the elephant, basically, the number during those time, they said that it's all made could be very close to 10,000 elephants in the whole entire Thailand. And once it closed down, the elephant basically doesn't have a place to go. Hence, in the late in the early 90s and 2000, there's actually a rise of elephant camps where elephant use as, I guess, entertainment or attraction. So, a lot of it in the beginning was, of course, elephant riding, elephant trekking on the back of a, on the seat on the back of an elephant. Then you also have things like training elephants for circus shows, and things stay in those era until the idea  of elephant welfare or animal welfare itself start to become a bit more, I guess, what is...

SS: Mainstream or... 

NM: Like more mainstream, correct, like more mainstream people start to learn more about it. Then you have a break, I guess, in how people should raise elephant and everybody's like, 'Oh, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that. And you should just let the elephant be itself,' which is not a bad thing, but it actually, I think, for me, it felt like it ruined a lot of the mahouts and elephant relationship that they might have had develop as well.

TC: Yeah, it's, it's so great that, you know, I mean, I think that's part of ethical animal tourism is, kind of, you know, what you're doing is that you're educating people. And so, to be, to be able to help people understand the background and the history, and you know, the truth about elephants is, that is, all the difference I think, when you go to these, try and, when you go to like, try and have these experiences, So, thanks for, for giving us the history lesson there!

SS: I know! I thought you said you didn't know anything! I thought that was fascinating.

TC: I took notes and everything, there'll be a quiz! So, you know, you're working with mahouts, who have their elephants... 

NM: Yes. 

TC: What is the most challenging part of your job?

NM: I think I remember the first day that I walked in, I was sort of like, 'So what do we do with this elephant?' So how do I approach this, like, do I go and touch it? Do I, you know, not touch it? Or do I let it sit out? Or, what are we going to do with it? So it's very challenging, actually, to first approach the elephant themselves because for me, even though you know, I'm Thai and everything, like, nobody get to be up close and personal every single day like the mahout would, and I think a lot of it, at very first, is also jumping into the world of mahouts where it's only male dominant, which is very difficult. I think a lot of them was very, um, kind of like, 'This doctor doesn't know anything about the elephant, what the heck?' And I think the first few, I think even cases that I have, they were really doubting whether I was going to be able to, like treat the elephant into like nurse it back to health kind of thing. And that was actually pretty difficult in itself, I think. The hardest part is like, gain acceptance, acceptance from the mahout themselves so that they respect you as their veterinarian, because a lot of these guys, they still would consult their, I called it the witch doctor or the Voodoo doctor. Basically a lot of it to do with like, Oh, you have to go pray to that prayer to this god. You have to, you know, blow some alcohol onto the elephant, make it drink alcohol or whiskey or something. And the elephant will get better in three to seven days. And I would just go like, 'Well, you can do that. And I can also, well, why don't we take, let's see, 50/50, so you do that. And I'll also do my modern medicine approach.' If the elephant get better, get better, you can take all the credit to your Voodoo doctor or witch doctor or whatever it is. And I would just be happy with the fact that the elephant is okay. So a lot of it is sort of like this balance this Yeah, this balance this game that you played with the mahout as well,

TC: That's very frustrating, that you have to be like, 'Please don't get your elephant drunk. But if you're going to, at least let me give them some medicine.'

NM: Yeah.

SS: So you've been, you've been with your company now since November of 2015. Do you, do you feel like it's gotten better with the mahouts now? Like, do you, do you feel like you've earned that, that street cred and the respect? 

NM: Good, I actually felt that they are a bit more open to me now, that they actually listen, and they actually understood that when an elephant is sick, they just come and sort of like, look for me or call me, everybody have my cell phone number now. And I'm actually really happy that they actually choose to call me and then so that I can actually go in and check on the elephant rather than them having done something like a, like a method their hometown method and then tell me about three days later. So, I'm actually think that I'm actually accepted. 

TC: That's awesome!

SS: Yeah!

NM: Only take four and a half years, I know. 

SS: That's great. You've battled all of these challenges, you know, from your, from your first visit where you didn't, you didn't necessarily have your feet under you and, and these challenges with the hoots and getting responsible tourism. What, what do you love most about your job?

NM: I love my job for the elephant interaction that I'm able to do. I'm at the point where I'm getting , the mahouts said that I'm getting way too comfortable around them, where I've actually become too relaxed around the elephant and they were like, 'Doctor, you don't, you should, you know, come, come toward us, don't go toward the elephant' kind of thing. And I understand that the elephants, you know, they're pretty large creatures and some time, they have their own personality. And some actually have teased me in the elephant way, but it's not necessarily human safe, in a way. Things like, you know, let me just, you know, push you with my leg a little bit, and then almost equal kick, basically. But I'm also I think, it's actually nice to see that the elephants is a bit more relaxed. They don't mind me when I'm like walking around. I mean, I still do have a couple that actually thinks that I have a needle hidden somewhere and I might, you know, do something to them, which I don't normally do. But sometimes they're sick and they think they have that impression that 'If this lady walked in, then I'm going to get something bad happening to me like, I'll get like a little hurt over here. I don't know what happened, but she hurt me.' a little bit of protection if not, but some of them actually start to realize that, 'Oh, if she comes sometimes she has food. So we'll go see here and we will open our mouth really wide and try to you know, make sure that you put food in our mouth.' So, yeah, it's very cute. And definitely, it's actually kind of nice when you hear that genuine thank you from the mahouts for, you know, making sure that the elephant gets better and, you know, coming in every day and making sure you don't, you know, leaving them hanging, I guess like not knowing what to do when the elephant is sick. So it's actually nice.

TC: I learned a lot from her. 

SS: Yeah. Oh my gosh 

TC: Because I was just like, 'You don't do this and you do this, like, these are the right ways to do it.' And actually, as it turns out, it's, there's so much gray area and like it's individual to each elephant.

SS: Right, and well, and will each, you know, expert as well, like each, each expert mahout, each expert veterinarian, you know, they, they all have their different methods, they all have their different backgrounds. And so, when you, as a tourist, are trying to go, it can be, it can be really confusing to make sure that it's safe and responsible.

TC: And I think honestly what she told me and what she told us, makes me even more confused, because now I'm like, wait, like, what am I looking for? You know, it's really challenging to wade through all of the information on the interwebs

SS: Well, it is and I think, I think the other thing too, is because it is such a huge tourist attraction and, and it's a huge way to, to make money to care for these elephants, you know, like, it's, it's kind of like, does, does the bad outweigh the good? Does the good outweigh the bad? And it's, you know, on the one hand, it's like, yes, it's a magical, wonderful experience, but the utmost responsibility should be to what is the welfare of the elephants. Like, like, you know, yes, they need money, but like, Is it worth it to, to have strangers touch them?

TC: It's really wonderful to talk with people who are putting the welfare of animals first and wanting to educate people about it, and hopefully inform our decisions when we travel in the future.

SS: And, you know, honestly, like learning about them was one of the most fun parts about it, because it just gave me a huge respect for them and everyone who works with them. 

TC: You became a full on elephant nerd. 

SS: I did. I did. I was, I was and still am considering joining the mahout training program. So you might lose me.

TC: You'll be too busy mahouting. 

SS: I'm gonna be mahouting! 

TC: She talks about how many of, how many of the mahouts are males. So, you know... 

SS: Oh yes, there were no ladies.

TC: There, there were no ladies when you went?

SS: There were no ladies, no, no. I think there were, there was like, there was a veterinary intern, I think, and there were some, some staff who were women but for the most part it was men, men men, men, men men. Many mahout men.

TC: Well, it's great that someone like Dr. Nisa is over there and is whipping them into shape and keeping the elephants healthy.

SS: Yeah. Giving them nice long lives.

TC: If you are listening to this episode during the Corona virus pandemic, you can catch the Golden Triangle Asian elephant Foundation lockdown live stream at 7:30am and 4pm Thai time. They also have educational lessons where they take questions at 9am and 5pm Thai time. 

SS: You can find them on Facebook by searching for gtaef.helpingelephants. And on Instagram at @gtaef_thailand and their website is www.helpingelephants.org. To find out more about the experiences for an Anantara guests at anantara.com

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