Transcript
016: Zenith Irfan

Theresa Christine: Welcome to The Wild and Curious Podcast, a show that's part travel, 

Suzanne Schmedding: Part feminism, 

TC: And completely inspired by extraordinary women worldwide. I'm Theresa Christine,

SS: And I'm Suzanne Schmedding

TC: Whenever I think about, like, the dreams that you have for yourself, or like, the dreams that I have for myself, rather, I'm always, I don't know, it's just like very self focused like, I don't wanna say selfish because they're my dreams, but like, I'm not, I'm not trying to achieve someone else's. And I don't know, have you ever, like, fulfilled kind of someone else's dream that they weren't ever able to do?

SS: I mean, I, I sort of think so. 

TC: Ooh, tell me. 

SS: So, I mean, you, you know, I was really close with my grandmother. And she was, she was this incredible woman. But like, there were also times when I used to think that if she had been born in a different time, where it was more socially acceptable to her, she might never have gotten married, like she might have...

TC: She definitely wouldn't have. She sounded so spicy.

SS: She was so spicy! Yeah, like, I feel like she might have, you know, she never might have gotten married, she would have run this, you know, fashion company in New York. And, you know, she would have traveled more. And, and I think, I don't think she regretted her life. But I think, I think she just sort of felt like, this is what you do. You know, you get married, you have children, and na-na-na. And like, and to be honest, like, even, even when I talk to my, my mom now and I'm just like, 'Oh, I'm, you know, I'm this adult, and I haven't done this or that,' she's just like, she's like, 'You have, you have no idea how nice it is to see a daughter of mine who is, you know, who's a little bit different, and who's traveling and isn't married and doesn't have kids and is just kind of figuring it out and stays very true to herself, even when it's kind of painful.'

TC: Yeah, I think that's the, I mean, we have so far to go. Women, in general, just to have like, equal rights. But there, there is nothing wrong with being like, 'I just want to get married and have kids and like live in a nice house.' 

SS: Oh my gosh, no, of course not!

TC: There's nothing wrong with that. But it's nice today that like, you have these options. And that you can do, you can choose, you can be like, 'I can do that path or I can do something else, like hop on a motorcycle and drive across Pakistan.' Today, we are talking to Zenith Irfan. She began riding motorcycles in 2013 and she took her first month long solo ride across Pakistan, in 2015. And there has even been a movie made about her journey called 'Motorcycle Girl.'

SS: Since then, she has traveled almost all of northern Pakistan. She loves meeting people along her journeys, and inspiring young women and girls to follow their dreams.

Zenith Irfan: It all started because of a dream that my father saw, you know, human beings dream. And that was that notion that made me who I am today. So I was very young. I was around 10 months old when I lost my father. And I was, you know, someone who never knew who her father figure was, I never like knew how it was like to be with a father. And although these questions never haunted me, but I would be always curious, like, I was a curious child, I still remember taking out the world map. And looking at all the cities and the countries, pinpointing each and every trace and outline of the cities and the countries and wanting to travel, you know, I still remember that memory. And that's why that curiosity in me wanted to know more about my father. And that bought up to that question, you know, who my father was. And one day I was just browsing through these photographs, and I came across this very, very vivid photograph of my father in the mountains. And, I questioned my mom about it, I was like,  'Tell me more about my father, you know, I never asked you so much about him, but I really want to know who he was.' And it was then that she told me that he really wanted to live a gypsy life, you know, a life, where he wanted to travel all across the world on a motorcycle, and like really not have any you know, responsibilities on him and he was like, he wanted to be a free soul. And unfortunately, that did not happen because they got married. Really young, and he had me, then my mom got pregnant with my brother very quickly, you know, after me so. So that's why he wasn't able to live all these dreams, and he passed away at age 32, you know, and it made me question my own dream. And I was like, I mean, I don't know if I want to do this for him or not, because I was very young. When I first heard about this story, I was studying, and I had no idea that I would be able to even do this. And when I went into college, soon, I fell in love with someone. And as soon as I fell in love, I was in a very different space and a different frame of mind. And soon, when I had my first heartbreak and heartbreak after heartbreak, I was in a space where I was extremely negative. And when I had that first heartbreak, and heartbreak after heartbreak from the same person, actually, you know, I realized that I cannot sit in my room and cry, you know, like, I understood that I have to use this energy in me. And I don't know, transform it into something that can help me cope up with this. And that is when my father's dream actually rekindled inside me, I really believe in this notion that fate is a lot pushes you towards that ultimate goal. And I guess that's what pushed me towards my further journey. You know, that was the entire mental thing that was going on the entire spiritual changes going on in my life. And that's when I first started riding.

TC: Sounds like it was very necessary at that point. It's so great that you found it.

ZI: Yeah, I guess, I'm happy that I did.

SS: You know, and the thing is, I think that when you are going through something like that, when you're going through a major transition, it's sort of emanates from you. And, and when you were chasing your dreams, you know, that's not always easy for people in, you know, in different places in their lives to encounter. So what I'm kind of wondering is what was the reception from people along your journey as they're seeing this, like, very strong, powerful woman and transition like traveling across the country?

ZI: The reason that I was able to identify that I was going through depression, anxiety, low self esteem, and that I have to use all of this emotion and transform it into my motorcycle journey was because of my mother. She was someone who really helped me pinpoint my emotions. And the way she did it, the medium she used was through writing. So I am someone who started writing when I was eight years old, she, I remember my mother walking into the room to my bedroom when I was very young. And she gave me a diary as a gift. And she asked me to write down everything that happened with me in school, or in a daily life, she did the same with Sultan, my brother. So we both were brought up like that, we were at a very young age told to, you know, understand where you are standing right now. And that is why few years later, when all of this was happening, I was able to say that, 'Yes, I want to take this journey. I'm depressed right now. And I can use this negative energy, which is a very powerful energy,' you know. I mean, it's so counter intuitive. People often say, positive energy is something that you should manifest. But with me, it's totally counterintuitive. It's the opposite. I find that whenever I'm in pain, or when I'm going through heartbreak, I have, I'm so creative. That's when I told my mom that I want to take this journey. And it's also a way for me to understand more about my father and where he was coming from, when he said, said that to you, you know that I want to take this trip. So my mom supported that idea. And she was like, 'Definitely, I mean, you should go for it.' And because there's another reason for this was also because my mom when she was being brought up, she wasn't allowed to dream so openly, you know, she had that restrictions. My grandmother was very strict, you know, and she wasn't allowed to be, be as free as I am. So, so because of the fact that she wasn't able to dream as a woman, you know, in Pakistan, and as a Muslim woman, so that's why she wanted me to not be deprived of the, of the dreams that I see. And I'm privileged that I'm born, I'm born in a family like this.

TC: Yeah, she sounds like an amazing woman, like, so supportive of something that, you know, when you started riding in 2013, and like learning how to ride and then going on these journeys, it's really, it was not common to encounter women on motorcycles and on motorbikes traveling around the country. 

ZI: Exactly, yeah. 

TC: So I mean, since then, you know, now it's 2020. Like, has perception changed? And if so, like, how?

ZI: It's, the perception has definitely changed because back in 2013, you would rarely see a woman riding a motorcycle. When I started riding, there were these people, these men who would really gawk at me. And there were these men who would whistle at me, cat call me. And I wasn't able to understand, why is this happening? I mean, a motorcycle is a very basic thing. I mean, it's extremely unlikely for a girl to be riding a motorcycle, and a young girl like me, you know, I was 18 years old at that time. So I soon began to get used to the road. So like, in the beginning, I would be so scared, like, because they will be these random weekers stop in front of me trying to bump into my bike. But the more I went on the road, the more I trained on the road, the more I got used to it. And I also remember my brother telling me something like, you know, if some, someone harasses you, or is like, cat-calling, you, you have to face it alone. I can't be always there for you. You're like, he wasn't. So he was supportive like that. And you have to stand up for yourself. I mean, you have to really know where you're coming from. And, and he was so young, you know, like, I think he was 16,17. And coming, as you know, a stance like that coming from a young boy in Pakistan is so, you know, unique, and it's very different. And I was, I was so happy that my brother's supportive. And because I spoke about my journeys online, the entire perception changed. So everyone started speaking about this young girl, she's, you know, riding in the mountains, she's riding in the city. And because I use social media, and my writing skills and my English skills to communicate about my journey, you know, it changed a lot of minds. 

TC: Part of the reason that people are seeing it more often is probably also because of you. Because you have been, like part of this movement, and you've been... 

SS: Visible 

TC: On your motorcycle. Yeah, exactly.

SS: Yeah, visible not only in the world, but also like, online, you know, which is, I mean, it's a new platform in, you know, in terms of like, relative timelines, but like being visible like that, and sharing your story, it's, it's a new thing. It's, it's very wonderful.

ZI: It's not only about me, you know, I mean, being visible as a woman in general is so important. In today's generation, we need more women to come out and tell about the stories of struggle and sacrifice. And it's very important because women like me, maybe, a woman, like you both even, set examples for the younger generation, for younger girls out there. I feel there's still not enough role models for young girls to follow, you know. I still feel they're not enough women who participate in this, you know, in sports, or in motorsports. It's building, of course, things are changing, and I'm happy about that. But this is what I understood. You know, like, when I first started riding, I just did not want to ride and keep it private. I want to tell the stories of people in the mountains, you know, tell their stories, who they are. And even the woman in the mountains, on how I, as a, as a girl who lives in Lahore, Pakistan, has such a different perspective about the woman in the villages and the towns and maybe I thought they're uneducated or illiterate. But everything was changed when I started riding, you know, everything. I mean, I was surprised to know, they're so empowered and educated even. And that is what I was trying to do. And it helped me change a lot of people's mind. Like I mentioned earlier, you know, a lot of people messaged me, and they said that, even men messaged me saying that, 'We know, we as men are so scared to ride a motorcycle, and you, you kind of like shame us and you're like, you're shaming us like, Oh my god, I'm a man I can't even ride a bike and you as a woman can ride a bike.' So you know, he thinks that she's now happy to be part of that changes

TC: I want to kind of go back to something you were talking about. Kind of talking about connecting with some of these young girls along your travels. How do you feel like you have inspired them to sort of, not necessarily following your footsteps, but you know, you've met so many people on these journeys who, they would never have imagined meeting this cool girl on a motorbike.

ZI: It's It's been such a liberating experience to travel in the villages especially that are in the mountains because when I first took my first trip, the first worst trip that I took... When I was traveling through these valleys, I would often come across young woman, very young and very, you know, they were very, I can, very beautiful. I mean I must say they're extremely beautiful and they have never seen a woman on a motorcycle firstly, plus they have never seen a woman on a motorcycle traveling in their village. So, that they, you know, when I would often travel through their villages, there was a sparkle in their eyes. You know that, that sparkle it I cannot even express it right now. I don't even think there is a English word for how I felt when I saw that sparkle and in their mind,  there is a very different definition of what being a woman is. And that is what I understood also that it's not important for there to be a, you know, a general definition of what freedom means or what being a woman means. It's such a subjective, different, you know, the definition is so subjective, that I soon realized that, you know, you cannot force your idea of seeing the world through others. And I learned this, you know, like, when I would travel to the villages, the girls would ask me so many questions like, 'Where are you from? Why are you on a motorcycle?' firstly, like, 'Why? Why are you doing this on a motorcycle?' They couldn't understand that, and, you know, trying to make them understand why I'm doing this and like, why are you taking pictures, and then they would see my gear and everything, you know, like motorcycles pack, they will touch that, you know, seeing all that is so nice, you know, that entire picture, I'm sure you can picture that, you know, like young girls surrounded around you. And I think that gives a very silent message, you know, like, 'See? A woman is able to even do this.' So instead of just like barging in their houses and talking to them about woman empowerment or like, how they should dream, like, you know, instead of forcing them to dream, it gives a very silent message, you know, through my riding. And to me just being there, that a woman is capable of even this.

TC: The fact that it, it has just opened up your world, and it's something that you love doing is really, really special. As you're looking forward, what is next for you?

ZI: So right now, of course, with the world the way it is, I wasn't able to travel, you know, you can understand that I wasn't able to travel anywhere. I was actually planning to travel to Sindh and Balochistan. These are the two provinces in Pakistan that are rich in culture, and a lot of history. And as a Pakistani, I am not aware of these cultures at all. So I wanted to travel there. Unfortunately, I couldn't do so. But I look forward to do so to do it in next year. Secondly, I have a lot planned for how I see, you know, myself in the next few years, and what I really want to do for Pakistan. A lot of people tell me that, you know, if you leave, leave Pakistan, you would be so much more successful, then who, then who you are today, or where you are today, etc. But I kind of disagree with that. Because Pakistan, Pakistan needs more women like me, you know, my country needs me because we don't have many examples of women, like I mentioned before, that are role models for young girls, you know, so I know that I need to be here. And one thing that I have planned out, I shouldn't plan this out, like I have an idea in my mind is that I want to open up this institution, or you can say, like a school, but not like a contemporary school or like, you know, a typical school, it's not going to be like that. I want to open a school that really polishes skills of both young boys and girls and gives them the resources to manifest their dreams. So like, I'm not sure how I'm going to do that. But I really want to open up more schools that teach art, music or different types of hobbies, you know, and because I feel there are not many schools like that in Pakistan. Secondly, I really want to open up a tourism company that promotes motorcycle tourism in Pakistan. And because we have a, we have a lot of scenic beauty, like it's, we are rich in both culture and scenic beauty. That's why I want to open up a motorcycle tour company. And I have some plan, plans laid out in my mind, but I'm not sure how it's going to happen. But I'm working towards that.

TC: That's so cool. 

SS: I know! Like, you're an amazing Superwoman.

ZI: I mean, my ultimate dream is to have my own TV show for National Geographic, like I really want to have my own show, maybe I don't know, like for National Geographic, Discovery Channel, or I don't know, any travel channel. And, of course, and travel the world. That's, that's on top of the list.

SS: I think one of the most poignant things for me that she talked about was, was this act of breaking down all of these different pieces of herself when she opened her heart to, you know, to young love and realizing that she was becoming this different person and she had to find a new way to put herself together and she did it in a way that connected in a familial way that you know, had nothing to do with romantic love, but like, it connected her to her roots, to her family, and to the people of her country. And I thought I thought that was so lovely and incredible.

TC: Yeah, it was this like, self discovery that, like you mentioned, it's very tied to family and in Pakistan, family is like number one. And you, before, like, during the pre-show Zenith was talking to us and telling us how you live with your family in Pakistan. Like, that's, that's just what happens. You know, like, if you're a woman, you're living with your parents until I'm presuming, you get married, and then you move in with your husband. And so it's just like, family is everything. And that is like the number one. And so, yes, her journey was about, it was about a lot of things. It was about this heartbreak. It was about depression. But it was also about like, finding herself through the identity of people who created her. And the fact that her mom was supportive of this, too, is, is so so wonderful.

SS: Well, yeah, and like the way that she said her mom gave her a voice and a way to articulate from a very young age. And I think, I think the other thing that really stood out to me is, you know, she was talking about what she will become, what's next for her and, and how she was saying that kind of the general consensus there is that you have to leave Pakistan to do something. And she was like, 'No, actually, I want to be that role model for my country. Like, I want to start this, like this visibility of women being empowered and, and, you know, creating a space for that, where maybe there didn't exist a space before,' I think I thought she was so cool.

TC: And there's just so much, I mean, first of all, there's so much that she has to contribute to her own country. And I think that that will reverberate and extend beyond Pakistan, but also just as far as a traveler and someone who's going on a journey, there's so much to discover in Pakistan. Like it's this, you know, you don't kind of you kind of don't look at your own backyard sometimes. And especially now, with the pandemic, we're all sort of being forced to re-examine where we live, and you know what it is that is beautiful and wonderful about it, and she's been doing that for a while now already, which is really cool.

SS: Yeah, no, I love that, I love that she wants to, you know, bring more there and promote that more there and explore more there and she's learning so much about like, you know, the people who, who have lived there, the people in the countryside who she never could have imagined meeting. If you would also like to learn more about Zenith, you can go to her Instagram at @zenithirfan, which is Z-e-n-i-t-h I-r-f-a-n.

TC: You can find Zenith on her Facebook page, which is under her name, Zenith Irfan. If you enjoy listening to The Wild and Curious Podcast and would like to contribute to helping us make this thing run, you can. You can Venmo us at @thewildandcurious or via paypal paypal.me/wildlandcurious. Anything you send, big or small, will go towards the costs of running a podcast that's dismantling the patriarchy.

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